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john mcg
September 7th, 2010, 07:10 PM
No other name or model.
12 gauge, 28"
Talk to me, fellas.
The barrels inside and out are like new!
Was stuck in a dry closet and forgotten.

http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu171/AlphaSetter/P9060204.jpg
http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu171/AlphaSetter/P9060205.jpg
http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu171/AlphaSetter/P9060207.jpg

Larry Brown
September 8th, 2010, 10:44 AM
Looks like the same gun that used to be imported under the Charles Daly name. If it doesn't say Daly, then some GI probably brought it back from Japan. Or it may have been made for the European market. Other than breaking the occasional spring, those old Miroku/Daly OU's are really nice guns.

Greenjeans
September 8th, 2010, 02:20 PM
Its been said that these guns rival the Brownings that were made in the same factory.

normanb
September 8th, 2010, 03:26 PM
Never was up on Miroku model numbers ,but this gun was a "copy "of the Browning Lightening. Or rather based on the same design .Does it have coil springs in the forend or flat type?

KDGJ
September 8th, 2010, 08:58 PM
Actually, these were available in the US and not necessarily brought over by a GI. I hunted with a guy who bought his from Sears originally. As others have said this is the company Browning went to to build the citori and BSS.

September 9th, 2010, 10:13 AM
I have a Charles Daly from that period in 20g. It has the same engraving pattern as the gun pictured. It is an
excellent gun, and does have leaf springs. It feels and handles exactly like a Citori which is pretty good; especially nice in the 20. Mine originally had a very dark finish on the wood which tended to hide some really good figure. We went with a
lighter stain on the refinish and it came out better than expected. To me they seem to be excellent guns at friendly prices.

Larry Brown
September 9th, 2010, 10:21 AM
I could be wrong, but I don't think Mirokus were ever brought into this country, new, under only their own name. They were brought in under names other than Charles Daly, although the vast majority of them were Dalys. But I just attended a Ruffed Grouse Society banquet at my old chapter, and one of the raffle guns was a side by side I procured for them years ago. Nice little 20ga, marked Miroku--but also marked "Western Field", which was Montgomery Ward's "house brand" back when they were in the gun business. Tried to win that one back and failed.

The early Miroku OU's, from the pre-Citori Charles Daly period, obviously attempted to copy the Browning Superposed externally, although the internals were very different.

Greenjeans
September 9th, 2010, 10:26 AM
Larry--I'm thinking that this one is from 70's or so, and is a copy (if that is the word) of the Lightning.
It looks like the lightning.
Once I have it in my hands, I'll be able to take better pictures and look at it carefully.

September 9th, 2010, 10:41 AM
It would be interesting to know the year and date that Miroku started producing the Citori for Browning. If I ever knew that, I've forgotten it long ago. I think these Mirokus we are discussing may well have been built at the same time they were cranking out Citoris. Correct me if I am wrong on that. Miroku have also sold guns in the UK for a long time under their own name and to British taste rather than American. Pick one up with your eyes closed and you will have a difficult time telling if the piece is Browning or Charles Daly.

Leon670
September 9th, 2010, 10:58 AM
It would be interesting to know the year and date that Miroku started producing the Citori for Browning. If I ever knew that, I've forgotten it long ago. I think these Mirokus we are discussing may well have been built at the same time they were cranking out Citoris. Correct me if I am wrong on that. Miroku have also sold guns in the UK for a long time under their own name and to British taste rather than American. Pick one up with your eyes closed and you will have a difficult time telling if the piece is Browning or Charles Daly.



For some reason, 1973 comes to mind.

Greenjeans
September 9th, 2010, 11:22 AM
It would be interesting to know the year and date that Miroku started producing the Citori for Browning. If I ever knew that, I've forgotten it long ago. I think these Mirokus we are discussing may well have been built at the same time they were cranking out Citoris. Correct me if I am wrong on that. Miroku have also sold guns in the UK for a long time under their own name and to British taste rather than American. Pick one up with your eyes closed and you will have a difficult time telling if the piece is Browning or Charles Daly.



For some reason, 1973 comes to mind.

I think I read somewhere that Browning first started talking to Miroku in the 60's, so maybe the Citori's came after ward.

Double D
September 9th, 2010, 02:50 PM
I looked up Browning's historical timeline on google.com -- on the Browning site, they listed the introduction of the BSS in 1972 and the Citori in 1973 -- both made by Miroku.

September 9th, 2010, 03:10 PM
Now I need to figure out when my Charles Daly Miroku was made. I've no idea but it's a challenge to find out.
CP

September 9th, 2010, 03:26 PM
OK. The Charles Daly Mirokus were made from 1963 to 1976. After 1976, Daly went to Italy and Spain for their guns after a change in ownership of the name. My particular 20 is a "Superior grade" and I like it a lot. There seems to be some overlap with Citori production and my gun certainly looks like a Citori on the outside. The inner action is quite different. The fit and finish of the gun is very good. It is choked IC/MOD.

Greenjeans
September 9th, 2010, 03:34 PM
OK. The Charles Daly Mirokus were made from 1963 to 1976. After 1976, Daly went to Italy and Spain for their guns after a change in ownership of the name. My particular 20 is a "Superior grade" and I like it a lot. There seems to be some overlap with Citori production and my gun certainly looks like a Citori on the outside. The inner action is quite different. The fit and finish of the gun is very good. It is choked IC/MOD.

Have you been able to find a resource to trace origins by serial #?

I read somewhere that Miroku, in keeping with Japanese manufacturing practice at the time, borrowed a Browning and made improvements to the design--this got Browning's attention and they subsequently built to Browning specs, but continued to manufacture the 'improved' version under their own name for significantly less money.

September 9th, 2010, 03:51 PM
After the name Charles Daly had been been sold and resold, it finally seems to have been killed off for good. That's the latest.
I have no idea who might have the records, but perhaps Miroku themselves could help out. It will be fun to see what folks can dig up. Sloans Sporting Goods of Ridgefield, Ct. owned by the Walzer family, had the Charles Daly name from the 1920's until 1976. Anyone out there know if Sloans is still in business?

KDGJ
September 9th, 2010, 10:59 PM
could be wrong, but I don't think Mirokus were ever brought into this country, new, under only their own name.

Larry...I respect your opinions however, BC Mirokus were available for sale in this country without an importers name. Reference my previous post.

Ken

Double D
September 10th, 2010, 01:12 AM
It seemed to me that I had seen ads for Miroku shotguns in some European sporting publications. I found a shop online that does carry the new Miroku line -- you may want to check it out....

http://www.gun.co.uk/?page=Miroku

Greenjeans
September 10th, 2010, 09:52 AM
I'm looking forward to doing research on these guns.
Heck--maybe I'll become a collector and world renowned authority.

Greenjeans
September 10th, 2010, 09:55 AM
I just found this little piece.

Current manufacturer established during 1893 and located in Kochi, Japan. Miroku currently manufactures long arms for Browning and Winchester (please refer to individual sections), in addition to their own line of firearms mostly distributed in Europe.
Shotguns marked Miroku only without another trademark listing represent that period of manufacture before Miroku began manufacturing shotguns for other companies (i.e. Charles Daly, Browning, and others). Most guns marked Miroku only were made on a limited basis and although somewhat rare, collector desirability to date has been minimal. Since model notations were not specified in most instances (many shotguns were made to test market demand), a model rundown is virtually impossible. Values can be approx. ascertained by comparing a Miroku shotgun of similar gauge, features, engraving/wood, and condition to an equivalent Japanese Charles Daly model. Miroku also manufactured revolvers up until approx. 1964 which may be designated Liberty Chief - limited importation into the U.S.

Gundoktr
September 10th, 2010, 10:24 AM
I have had five or six of these guns. I know of a few "Miroku" guns that were purchased here in the states. I have had 12's, 20's and a 28. I currently own two 12's, two 20's. I have had them with and without ejectors, most recently a 20 that I sold and bought one with the ejectors.

There was, as was stated, great variation in grades and styles, lots of trap guns and skeet guns along with 3" mag models and field guns bored many different choke combos. They came with leaf springs and coil springs. Some had leaf springs for the hammers and coil springs for the ejectors.

These are great guns, they simply flat work. I have had one 20 that I took to SA seven times and traded off with a Superposed 20 when it got hot. Shot it as much as the S'posed and NEVER had a failure. I still shoot it. I gave one 20 to my grandson and another to my son. I would not hesitate to buy another, there is something about them that appeals to me. I only wish I still have the 28.

As an added not, a few years back, I shipped three guns to Jim Wisner of "Wisner's" in Chehalis, WA. He disassembled them and copied all of the parts for remanufacture. He is making parts for them but best to call.

Greenjeans
September 10th, 2010, 11:29 AM
I have had five or six of these guns. I know of a few "Miroku" guns that were purchased here in the states. I have had 12's, 20's and a 28. I currently own two 12's, two 20's. I have had them with and without ejectors, most recently a 20 that I sold and bought one with the ejectors.

There was, as was stated, great variation in grades and styles, lots of trap guns and skeet guns along with 3" mag models and field guns bored many different choke combos. They came with leaf springs and coil springs. Some had leaf springs for the hammers and coil springs for the ejectors.

These are great guns, they simply flat work. I have had one 20 that I took to SA seven times and traded off with a Superposed 20 when it got hot. Shot it as much as the S'posed and NEVER had a failure. I still shoot it. I gave one 20 to my grandson and another to my son. I would not hesitate to buy another, there is something about them that appeals to me. I only wish I still have the 28.

As an added not, a few years back, I shipped three guns to Jim Wisner of "Wisner's" in Chehalis, WA. He disassembled them and copied all of the parts for remanufacture. He is making parts for them but best to call.

Great information!

Larry Brown
September 10th, 2010, 12:31 PM
Interesting. So some were imported prior to (or concurrent with) the Daly era. I'm thinking not many, because I certainly don't remember them. But then if the guns are only marked Miroku and without an importer's name, that would mean it happened prior to the 1968 Gun Control Act. I had one, marked simply "Miroku Model M"--a sxs with straight grip, splinter forend, and DT. Looked like a basic Brummie boxlock. I got that one used from a dealer, and had assumed it was brought back by someone who'd been in Japan, probably in the military--because I know they were sold in the Rod & Gun Clubs over there. Also had another one, a sxs 20ga marked only Miroku, but I got that one from the original owner who served in the Navy in Japan.

According to "Buxton's Foreign Firearms", a couple models of Miroku OU's were being imported by Wyco Equipment & Supply Co of Winslow, Washington. That was as of 1963, which was about the same time Mirokus began to appear under the Daly name.

sd/mt pga pro
September 10th, 2010, 02:19 PM
I bought one eight or nine years ago from Jack First Gun Shop in Rapid City, marked "Miroku Trap" with long barrels, bored full and full. I gave very little for it, maybe 600 or 700 dollars. I remember that because that is why I bought it. The gun looks very much like the one pictured in the opening of this thread.

I do not believe it had any other written markings, though it might have had some stamped numbers on the water table and a serial number. Rapid City has a large Air Base and the gun could well have been brought over by an airman.

I gave the gun away to a young lad who show exceptional talent at the trap club his first visit. He was breaking 25 straight from the 16 yard line with an 870 after his second round.

After watching him for several weeks and hearing someone say that the lad was being raised by a single mother and that he was mowing lawns for shell money, I made him a present of the gun. All of which is why I can not put up a picture of the gun.

Greenjeans
September 10th, 2010, 03:46 PM
That is a great story, Bob!
This one is marked only 'BC Miroku' and a serial #.

Double D
September 11th, 2010, 01:40 AM
I bought a Miroku 12ga sxs at the Atsugi Naval Exchange on my last R&R to Japan in 1967. This was when the exchange rate between the Yen and the US$ was 360 to 1. I paid $78US for the sxs, and $141.50US for my Winchester Mod 101. As I remember, the Miroku O/U's were hovering around $100US and a Browning (Belgium) Superposed was around $250US. I was not stationed there, but I do know that lots of the people who were stationed there bought a lot of Miroku shotguns, and brought them back to the USA. It was interesting that just offbase, there were many very talented engravers who would take a plain Jane shotgun and turn it into something pretty special....

Larry Brown
September 11th, 2010, 09:28 AM
Those were the days, DD! I bought my first sxs, Ithaca SKB 150, at the Navy Rod & Gun Club in Rota, Spain, for $162 in 1972. The other option I considered was a 101, for $190. Some great deals back then, for those of us with access to the military rod & gun clubs.

john mcg
September 11th, 2010, 09:59 AM
Larry--are you saying that if the gun is marked only 'BC Miroku' and not with an importer, that this is conclusive evidence that the gun is pre-68?

September 11th, 2010, 10:11 AM
John, There is nothing conclusive about any of this stuff. The proper words would be "probably, reasonable certain, likely", and other such terms.
Cheers, CP

john mcg
September 11th, 2010, 10:52 AM
John, There is nothing conclusive about any of this stuff. The proper words would be "probably, reasonable certain, likely", and other such terms.
Cheers, CP

Probably, so.
:)

Larry Brown
September 11th, 2010, 09:14 PM
John, I am not 100% certain on this, but I'm pretty sure the GCA of 1968 required that importers' names be stamped on firearms if they went through an importer. Of course those guns brought back by members of the military, or others who did so acting as their own importer (which BATF rules allow), would not fall into that category. But if Miroku had an importer, post-68, I believe that would have been stamped on the guns.

john mcg
September 12th, 2010, 08:46 AM
I've got the gun at home!
Lower is marked +- (modified) + (full)

All metal is in excellent shape and the barrels are mirror clean with bluing nearly as nice as a new gun.
The wood has a richness in color that I didn't see before, but the stock finish has some marks in it like it was bouncing around in a closet for many years. Only the finish is effected and the fore-stock is nearly clean of it.
I'm thinking I might remove the shiny and oil it at some time.
Vented rib with one bead.
My digital bath scale says 7 lbs. on the dot, but I don't believe that.
LOP-14" to the original plastic plate.
DAH-2 1/2"
DAC-1 3/4" approximate

I like it a lot--SC's Thursday evening.

Larry Brown
September 12th, 2010, 11:06 AM
That's interesting--Browning choke markings. Both the ones I had marked only Miroku had the chokes marked American-style. One was IC-IM, the other M-F.

john mcg
September 12th, 2010, 11:18 AM
Its going to be fun to try to determine just when it was made and what action this most compares to.
It looks nearly identical to a Browning 425 laying next to it, in terms of the action. Internally, I don't have a clue.

The Miroku has much deeper and sharper engraving and the stock work is more substantial as well...both the checkering and the depth/relief of the cut behind the action.

john mcg
September 12th, 2010, 01:49 PM
I took some pictures to compare a 20g 425 and the 12g Miroku.
There are a bunch of them and some better than others.
If looking at them in the horizontal, the Miroku is always on the bottom. Those positions are consistent as the camera was in front, left or right.

http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu171/AlphaSetter/MirokuBrowning/P9110167.jpg
http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu171/AlphaSetter/MirokuBrowning/P9110168.jpg
http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu171/AlphaSetter/MirokuBrowning/P9110169.jpg
http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu171/AlphaSetter/MirokuBrowning/P9110170.jpg
http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu171/AlphaSetter/MirokuBrowning/P9110171.jpg
http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu171/AlphaSetter/MirokuBrowning/P9110172.jpg
http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu171/AlphaSetter/MirokuBrowning/P9110173.jpg
http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu171/AlphaSetter/MirokuBrowning/P9110174.jpg
http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu171/AlphaSetter/MirokuBrowning/P9110175.jpg
http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu171/AlphaSetter/MirokuBrowning/P9110176.jpg
http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu171/AlphaSetter/MirokuBrowning/P9110177.jpg
http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu171/AlphaSetter/MirokuBrowning/P9110178.jpg
http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu171/AlphaSetter/MirokuBrowning/P9110179.jpg
http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu171/AlphaSetter/MirokuBrowning/P9110180.jpg
http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu171/AlphaSetter/MirokuBrowning/P9110181.jpg
http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu171/AlphaSetter/MirokuBrowning/P9110182.jpg

JDKazee
September 17th, 2010, 12:42 AM
I own a Charles Daly (Miroku) O/U Superior Trap 12 Ga. They were Mfg. 1963-1976. Mine is like brand new, and it now belongs to my grandson (14 yrs) who started trap shooting last year. They are wonderful and well built guns. If it has a gold trigger its a copy of a Browning. They were made in field, Venture, Superior, Diamond, Wide Rib Diamond, and Diamond Regent, Trap, Skeet, or Field models, 12, 20, 28 and 410 Ga. 26, 28, 30 " vent rib barrels, various chokes, boxlock, auto ejectors, SST, select walnut checkered pistol grip stock. Superior and Diamond grade traps have Monte Carlo stocks. The Superior grade Trap has an optional selective ejection system enabling the shooter to deactivate the ejectors.
I am also looking for some information on a Japan made 20ga SXS that I purchased last year. It was made pre WWII, in the old plant that was Miroku. The gun is Kawaguchea model KE, High Grade 2 3/4 chamber, super wood, hard leather case, one of the most beautiful guns I have ever seen. Even the buttstock is checkered. The original owner brought it back from Japan and had owned it for about 53 yrs. He stated it was made in the 1930's.
I gave it to my gunsmith who stated its one of the finest shotguns he has ever seen. It was imported by Ambrocrombie & Fitch in London, England
Does anyone have any information on this gun or company??????

Larry Brown
September 17th, 2010, 09:27 AM
Two side by sides I owned--one marked Miroku and the other Hibiki, but otherwise essentially identical (other than one had extractors and the other ejectors)--both had "Kawaguchiya Firearms Corp" marked on the barrels. The name Miroku, as I understand, is a "Japanesed" version of "My Luck", which was the name that the company initially gave to guns they were sending to this country. It did not go over that well; hence, the switch to Miroku.

My extractor gun was a Miroku Model M, and very plain. If you go to doublegunshop and go back about 5 pages in the "for sale" listing, you'll find a KE "My Luck" that someone put up. Very nice looking gun!

normanb
September 17th, 2010, 03:52 PM
Hard to tell without the stock off but it looks like a model that was sold in the UK as the 800 .The disc set strikers age the gun to the 60's early 70's .Can not exactly remember when they stopped using them but that should give you a "before" date.

JDKazee
September 18th, 2010, 12:15 AM
:D
Larry Brown
Thank you for the information. I will check it out.
JD Kazee

llfriedman
September 20th, 2010, 07:03 PM
I inherited a Charles Daly Miroku in 12 ga with 3" chambers purchased in Japan in the 1960s. The wood, fit and finish and general appearance are all far superior to a 16 ga Citori that I bought new in 2004. It's a bit heavy for upland birds, but I've used it for waterfowl and trap for years. Enjoy your gun.

john mcg
October 24th, 2010, 11:49 AM
Finally got the gun weighed reliably.
That Leon fella says it weighs 7 lbs. on the button.
Carries and swings real nice.
Gonna send it to Mike Orlen for chokes comes spring time.

del mc cubbin
October 25th, 2010, 10:36 PM
For your info, I have a charles Daly Miroku sitting in my safe waiting for parts, Parts [ springs and firing pins etc.] are being made and sold by WISNER'S [ goggole them] these are leaf springs. prices are fair.

john mcg
October 26th, 2010, 07:11 AM
For your info, I have a charles Daly Miroku sitting in my safe waiting for parts, Parts [ springs and firing pins etc.] are being made and sold by WISNER'S [ goggole them] these are leaf springs. prices are fair.

Thanks del.
Mighty handy.

NewAgeBubba
December 17th, 2011, 11:25 AM
Try this website for info in BC Miroku (You have a great gun there): http://www.wisnersinc.com/additional_info/Mirokusprings.html