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  1. #1
    First Class Bob Smalser's Avatar
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    German Guild Gun?

    Picked up a nice German 16ga last week on Gunbroker and need help in completing my identification of the gun.

    http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =216892455







    What I read is a 16ga, Nitro-proofed at Zella-Mehlis for 2 1/2" shells with a service load of 16 metric-whatever of powder and 1oz of shot. Choked in the left barrel only and made in June 1925.

    What I don't understand is the "F.A.", the "S&S" and the "A.S.S."

    Can anyone correct or enlighten me further? Thanks.

  2. #2

    Re: German Guild Gun?

    Hey Bob, Welcome back!

    The best guy to ask is a fellow named "Raimey" at Doublegunshop.com
    But I'll take a stab at a couple things for you.
    The stampings represent the tube makers, and then the tube finishers. There were many families of gunmakers in Zella-Mehlis. They made guns for all kinds of retailers, which usually show up on the top rib.

    I'm not a German gun guy, preferring to just ask Raimey when I am curious about one.

    Oh, and thanks for re-stoking my woodworking efforts. Your little photo essays are wonderful. I still remember your felling the big Madrone.
    Wag more, bark less.

  3. #3
    First Class Bob Smalser's Avatar
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    Re: German Guild Gun?

    Got it, thanks.

    Looks like it's a Sauer Model 14.




  4. #4

    Re: German Guild Gun?

    Bob, I'd certainly second Raimey as your go-to guy on German guns. Only other thing I spot is that I don't believe there's anything about shot charge/load. The 16 in a circle means you put 16ga shells in the chambers. The 16/1 is a more accurate description of the real "gauge" of the barrels. Standard 16 gauge bore diameter is .662. A 16/1 indicates a slight overbore from the standard 16: bore diameter .669. I have a Sauer 20 marked in similar fashion, but with a 19 where yours has the 16/1. Same deal: mine's overbored from the standard 20ga, and a bore and choke gauge confirms that to be accurate.

  5. #5
    First Class Bob Smalser's Avatar
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    Re: German Guild Gun?

    For some reason the Doublegun BBS doesn't like my computer and I can't get on, even though I've been registered there for years.

    Thanks....I'll keep working on it.

    A fella named "Sauerfan" says the gun isn't a Sauer, despite the "S&S" on the barrels. He thinks it might be an August Schueller of Suhl, explaining the "A.S.S." on the tubes.

    But below is a Sauer 17, which was one grade (?) up with more engraving, ejectors and catch bars and the attendant additional screw beneath the cocking indicators.

    The screw placement, scalloped receiver, safety profile, doll's head, tang, fences and underbelly sure look identical to me. Plus looking at a number of guns tonite, the 24399 serial number seems to match Sauer's range for the mid-1920's.

    Did Sauer sell major assemblies to smaller makers ala Birmingham and St Etienne? Dunno. Maybe it is a guild gun like I initially thought.


  6. #6
    First Class
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    Re: German Guild Gun?

    The '16/1' is the year and month of proof ( i.e. January of 1916). Interestingly enough, something appears to have happened require re-proof, which was done in June of 1925 (6/25).
    Kyrie (Moderator - Spanish_Shotgun_Forum on Yahoo)

  7. #7
    Eagle
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    Re: German Guild Gun?

    Bob, the doublegun website changed address a few years ago. You are probably not using the correct address to get on.

  8. #8

    Re: German Guild Gun?

    If you want the correct answer, contact The German Gun Collectors Association.
    www.germanguns.com

  9. #9

    Re: German Guild Gun?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyrie
    The '16/1' is the year and month of proof ( i.e. January of 1916). Interestingly enough, something appears to have happened require re-proof, which was done in June of 1925 (6/25).
    Nope. It means exactly what I explained it to mean. For one thing, the date code always has the month first. Europeans often express date first, then month, while we do the opposite. But they don't reverse month and year. And there's also no reproof mark, which would be a crown over an R. And the date code isn't repeated on the underside of both barrels, as is the 16/1 mark. Date code will only be found on one, as is the 6/25.

    From Baron Engelhardt, "Proof in Modern Germany": "Barrels not bored to the standard sizes were marked with the caliber designations of the Tables, e.g., 13 or 13/1, which, of course use the next standard size shell--in this case a 12 bore shell." Bob's gun, marked in that particular fashion, indicates that both barrels are overbored slightly from the 16ga standard bore diameter.

  10. #10

    Re: German Guild Gun?

    Bob, the German gunmakers had a tendency to use designs that were nearly identical. Sauer/Simson/Merkel . . . sometimes the only way to confirm the maker is to look for the name on the gun. And sometimes a gun will look exactly like one of those, with no name at all.

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