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  1. #11
    Eagle
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Endless Mountains of Pa
    Posts
    3,866
    thornton,
    1st let me tell you I only participate on 1 Sporting type forum (SSBB), and 1 Gun type forum (28 Gauge). Have not been on any others for many many years, except the LeFever Gun forum one time, to gather some much needed historical information.

    Your problem with access due to leasing is one that is growing here in Pa also, however as I pointed out in Joe's case, the land belongs to the owner, and he has the right to lease or develop it as he chooses. You as an individual should have no say what so ever, as to his plans or how he makes his money.
    As noted my problem with these lease clubs is there tendency to claim open public hunting land, especially PGC land, as part of their lease. Interfering with a person legally hunting is against the law here in Pa.

    As far as the RGS stickers and such, it has just been in the past 4 or 5 years that the younger generation Grouse hunters have changed their ethics, they seem to no longer believe that a Grouse hunter developing his own covert locations is a part of Grouse and Woodcock hunting. I was recently told by a Mass state resident hunting in Pa, that they poach other Grouse hunters covert locations all the time, and see nothing wrong with doing it. You are absolutely correct, we try to avoid these 4 men and their 2 dogs as much as possible. Unfortunately we now have a lot more of these unethical Grouse/Woodcock hunters visiting Pa than we have ever had in the past.

    RGD/Dave
    Never worry about what others believe, walk in the way of the Lord.

  2. #12
    Rgd, I can easily believe you have limited your participation on upland message boards, for various reasons.
    However, that has nothing to do with my memory or the way attitudes seldom really change.
    We are all known, to a degree, by what we post today or have posted previously.

    I view an individual as seperate from Corporate, if tax incentives were ever in the mix but, I agree that a Private landowner can do as he or she wishes with their land.
    The farm neighboring mine was deer leased for about $40/acre.....their choice.
    Mine was to allow hunters without lease payments.
    Each to what keeps their own morning biscuits down.

    Popularity and populations deliver all sorts of people to an activity.....some will not mesh well with others.
    People do troll upland message boards for ideas of where-to-go.....your God's Country cast and blast notes have often been phrased a bit in neon.
    Cimino Hardware...a clear choice.

  3. #13
    Eagle
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Endless Mountains of Pa
    Posts
    3,866
    thornton,
    You are correct about one thing, I actually invite sportsman to God's country to fish and hunt, we have a great way of life here. However I expect them to all be ethical sportsman and be law abiding people. Potter/Tioga has a long tradition of accommodating the outdoor sporting public, I hope it continues for ever.

    Having a farm next to you leasing hunting rights can be a real problem, no doubt about it. I might think more in the same manner you do, if I had to put up with the problems that occur because of it. It is one of the big reasons I purchased land where I did, no possible way for leasing to happen here, unless I would lease land myself, which is never going to happen. I have developed our land as Grouse and Woodcock habitat, which also makes it very Deer, Turkey and Bear friendly. We seldom have trespassing problems, now that we have installed the big SS gate at the front of the forested lane, with the RGS habitat stickers and No Trespassing sign mounted on it. However our land and log cabin has been under complete video security 24-7, 365 sense we purchased and rebuilt it.

    I do disagree with your statement that we are all known some what by participating on these forums. Most of the sportsman that meet me in real life, advise me that I am completely different than what they expected, do to the conversations on the SSBB or 28 forums. In my case I actually do this on purpose, because of my past chosen vocation.
    Being retired has not change how I view the world, or how I like my privacy. Sure because of the SSBB and the 28 forum some people know I am a sportsman, train some gun dogs, own a few guns and worked for Uncle Sam but that is pretty much were it ends. I have to admit, I maybe in the minority when it comes to this privacy.

    RGD/Dave
    Never worry about what others believe, walk in the way of the Lord.

  4. #14
    I was speaking to the folks you do not invite, rgd.

    We all have go-no go limits regarding folks with whom we associate.

    Oh, the neighboring farm deer lease was/is no problem, as I hate the horned rats and do not hunt them these days.
    Two 11 points were taken on my place last season by archers.....they(deer) are in the yard all the time.
    One nice little 10 point(deer) should be a slunger next season, if age does not turn his rack south.
    The neighboring deer lessors came up to Ohio from TN...they stopped by the house to ask what the rules were should a wounded deer cross the fence.....nice folks.
    I said..."go get 'er, boys".

    Granted, some folks can adopt personas, often colorful and fanciful personas, but their words and so attitudes very often shine thru any halloween-type false face presented.
    Do people act differently away from a keyboard?
    I'm sure they often do....perhaps, I would.....depends upon the situation and the company.
    However, as an example, when someone subtly kicks on a FT dog as a birddog or makes jokes about dead dogs(even when classed as mountain humor)....well, I never forget and forgiveness is on the union card of someone far better than I.
    He would walking just in front of you, by the way.

    One thing to keep in mind tho...should you ever catch fire, you might want someone to pee on you to put out the fire.
    Not wise to cut down the number of possibles.
    Make it a good day.
    Cimino Hardware...a clear choice.

  5. #15
    Eagle
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Endless Mountains of Pa
    Posts
    3,866
    thronton,
    Your innuendo's are often times very misguided and don't worry that I am ever going to catch on fire, trying to pee on another hunter, is a very dangerous situation in our mountains, no matter the circumstances.

    Glad the Deer hunters actually inquired as to the rules of your private property and hunting on it. I have some people who I let hunt on our private property also, however I do not view Deer as horned Rats, that is for sure. Further if some body does not agree with me and my friends about FT dogs that is fine also, as long as they talk about the conversation at hand. Personal attacks are what undermines the forum and many fine people quit participating because of it, they simply do not want to deal with being insulted.

    RGD/Dave
    Never worry about what others believe, walk in the way of the Lord.

  6. #16
    You missed the old mountain saying, rgd.....hmmm.

    You also missed that the TN deer lease folks were not hunting on my farm.....they asked about deer recovery across the fence.
    Interesting point there....the fella owning that land, leased it and still allowed his buddies to deer hunt.
    All kinds can exist on both sides of a Lease.

    Disagereement is indeed fine and dandy....elevating one's own choice of dog by figuratively standing upon the head of another's choice tho.... is a flatlander move.
    As are dead dog jokes.
    No reverse gear works in that particular mud hole, son.

    Horned rats, they are.....and big business, as well.

    Personal comments can be either slights or well-meaning....."attacks" tho, are often defined from the receiving end, and, sometimes incorrectly.
    Personally, your writing does not bother me overmuch as I am as far from perfoct as one can find but moreso in that I can easily understand what you are saying.
    I may not agree but I do understand and no sweat develops from any effort at reading your posts.
    As I said before, folks have to want to understand...as Job #1.

    Now...my posts...yes, I can see how the effort of the trip might not be worth the arrival.
    But, I like to smile and remember.
    Ta-ta
    Cimino Hardware...a clear choice.

  7. #17
    Eagle
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Endless Mountains of Pa
    Posts
    3,866
    thornton,
    Recovering a Deer is considered part of hunting here in Pa, I do not know the game laws in your particular state, thus my comment on the hunters asking you the rules for your property. Which they absolutely should.

    I have never stood on anyones head, in fact my comments on FT dogs and people, were made because the FT people in that particular click (clique), made it clear that their FT dogs were better Grouse hunting dogs than our Ryman and Gordon Setters. I went on the offensive by advising them of the training we do, and how their FT dogs actually preform most times in the Grouse woods, with their companion masters. Further I did advise them that IMO FT dog Breeders take advantage of the average Grouse hunter, by selling them their discarded FT dog. Which many Grouse hunters then ask me to train. After appraising these independent big running FT bred dogs in the Grouse woods, we many times advise the purchaser they have made a mistake, and show them the difference in the dogs, and their biddability in the woods. Every once in a while I do run across a good pup that will turn into a real nice Grouse dog. Doing this infuriates the FT people, because I then recommend a Ryman, Gordon or Small Munsterlander Breeder to these hunters. I never advise a man who wants to play FT games to purchase a Ryman, Gordon or SM hunting dog, however FT breeders constantly sell their discarded pups, to unsuspecting Grouse hunters, who actually want a biddable companion Grouse hunting dog. IMO educating the Grouse hunting public, by doing my job as a Grouse dog trainer, is not standing on somebody else's head. Dogs are bred for different jobs, and a purchaser needs to do his home work before purchasing a dog that is best suited to accomplish the work he wants done. The real flat land move is to take advantage of a hunter by selling him a discarded FT dog, rather than the biddable Grouse hunting dog, he really is looking to acquire.

    For those Grouse hunters who want to stay with their FT Bred dogs we have developed a serious training program using the Dogtra T&B collars, it works very well. However a Dogtra T&B Collar is never a good substitute for a well bred biddable companion Grouse Dog, and eventually those Grouse hunters end up purchasing the true companion hunting dog, they even sometimes hunt them together, at the same time. These particular Grouse hunters are my greatest spokesmen, for they experience 1st hand the incredible differences between the dogs as they Grouse hunt with them.

    thornton,
    I think you are one of the few who actually realized what I was doing with the way I was intentionally writing. The writing is only one way of determining what kind people I happen to be dealing with, in different conversations here on the SSBB. I have used some other methods that I was trained to initiate also, most are very informative as to individual personalities. We do have a vast array here not the SSBB, some actually believing they are superior human beings because of how they were educated.

    RGD/Dave
    Last edited by Ryman Gun Dog; March 19th, 2017 at 01:34 PM.
    Never worry about what others believe, walk in the way of the Lord.

  8. #18
    Well, no you do elevate your choice of dog by standing upon the head of other pups, and have long and publicly done so, by setting a standard for the ruffed grouse dog that only fits the reality of your choice.
    Not what fits success or simple enjoyable hunting involving ruffed grouse....but what fits your rather narrow preference tho deep experience base.
    Your standard is fine, for you, but you are far from an expert on all ruffed grouse or all ruffed grouse hunting..beyond some hollers in NC Pa.
    Nice ploy tho...however, most see thru it as many have experienced success with other setters or other breeds.
    The problem arises if the inexperienced folks believe the sadly generalized BS against FT dogs or the puffery for Ryman-esque dogs, as then good dogs can go wanting.
    Promoting dogs as a way to promote one's own situation or created image is....low shelf.

    That is not to say that every FT dog or washout is a fit for everyone....for they surely are not.
    One must be honest in what is a best fit them and not what they imagine a best fit to be......and that takes Time and honesty in evaluating onesself, one's home, abilities, manner of hunting, and all else.
    It also takes wisdom in picking an "expert" for advice.
    Mistakes in what dog can be handled result in ...Rorys.
    I simply see no reason to diss FT dogs....I suspect you once may have tried those "games" and got your butt handed to you or found that not everyone buys into your ....artfully created tradition.
    I also see no reason to diss Rymans or Old Hemlocks or the like.
    All birddogs perform better than any of us, imho.

    We will pass by the dead FT dog "mountain humor" with only a side glance at another low shelf.

    Since I have had success and fine memories in hunting fields with setters from strong FT lines and actual FT washouts for whom I gave a home and a purpose, I especially see thru your puffery....of dog and all else.
    Now, along with an 8 year-old dog from FT lines, I also have a young Gordon.
    Porter is out of Voss' Buck so that may deliver some trial negative in your mind but....if so, that would only illustrate how little you do know.

    Consider sticking to your own narrow niches rather than trying to, subtly or not, stick it to those who choose a different dog, different "game", different whatever which still yields and enjoyable and successful day...for them.
    Dogs deserve better than to be fodder for your stabs at get-backs of real/imagined slights.
    All bird dogs deserve to be respected for themselves and for what they do in partnership with us.

    Personally, I think you have a lot to offer hunter and fisher folk rgd, and you do spend time in beautiful country.
    However, Mature Up a tad.
    Last edited by thornton; March 19th, 2017 at 01:49 PM.
    Cimino Hardware...a clear choice.

  9. #19
    From my perspective, owning land for "recreational purposes" tends to work better for those who live some distance away than it does for locals.

    Where I used to live in Iowa, for several years I had permission to hunt a very nice farm just down the road from my place. I never abused that privilege. Always called the owner, never took more than one other hunter with me (often my son), and didn't hunt it more than 2 or 3 times over the course of the season. It was a near perfect mix of habitat for pheasants. Only about 100 acres, half in CRP and most of the rest in crops. Included a nice little pond (with very good fishing for bass and bluegills) and two small streams. At that time it was the nicest piece of pheasant cover for miles around.

    Then he put the farm up for sale. I called him to talk to him about it, and it was obvious he wanted me to buy it. But my military retirement hadn't kicked in yet, and the cash rent on the crop ground and the CRP check would have just about covered the interest on the loan.

    But for me, being a local, I saw another problem. Since he'd allowed me to hunt there, I couldn't very well turn him down (and he had some relatives who hunted there as well) if I bought it. I couldn't make it my own private piece of pheasant heaven.

    To make a long story short, someone who lived about 100 miles away bought it--as well as another nice piece of property adjacent to it. That shut all of us out--and he could do that because he didn't know us, and he bought it strictly for the recreational value of the land. (I did contact him about fishing his pond, and that was OK with him.) There was a farmstead that didn't go along with the purchase, and the owner of the house more or less watched over the property for him to make sure no one took advantage of the fact he didn't live in the vicinity.

    While I regret losing that property, I had--and still have--permission to hunt 2 or 3 farms immediately adjacent to it. And since he has great habitat on his ground, that means more pheasants--and they don't all stay on his land all of the time. So I still reap some of the benefit. But it does get a bit tricky, assuming you want to get along with your neighbors, buying property and not allowing any of the locals to hunt.

  10. #20
    Eagle
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Nebraska
    Posts
    508
    Thornton, have you read Sorby's book The Black and Tan Bombshell? Gordons will run big when the terrain requires, and close down to a tighter range when the cover is such. Simple.
    Bore, n. ; everybody else's synonym for "shotgun enthusiast."

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